Snitches end up in ditches! Just show how much and how far the government will go to get their needs filled.. But sadly the crooks go free like Oliver North,Kissinger, Powell etc. Very interesting doc, touches on so many moral issues. Having just watched the Brit Marling movie 'The East' there were quite a few sticking points here for me on both sides of the many arguments it throws up.
I'll add, as someone from Ireland that followed the Dublin Mayday riots closely I can tell you that in my experience the media certainly gets its cake and eats it too. Plenty of our national papers here feel no qualms about switching sides on any given story to up their sales quotas. Mark's under cover and personal life became a series of really big mistakes and bad decisions. I wouldn't want to be him or involved with him. The most disturbing part of this doc for me was watching those defenceless kids in Copenhagen getting their skulls kicked in.
Reminded me of the Toronto police. I think unbeknownst to him at first, Mark's under cover role was to support big business and government interests. The police force was being used. NPOI was being used. I agreed with the ex Minister of the Environment's speculations that none of the activities sanctioned by the NPOI, in this doc , were intended to actually protect the public. On the other hand, we can't have people taking over nuclear power plants! Can you imagine the catastrophe if something technical went horribly wrong?
Its really hard to tell the good guys from the bad in these troubled times He seems remorseful. That is -both- Marks. Stricken by his professionally personal deceit. But also conflicted by the behavior of the police, that were, supposed to be policing his saftey.
Social manipulation can be extremely difficult to detect. Ergo the era of egos and similar clandestine cowardice frenemies. I remember seeing this sleazebag on the news. As soon as he started developing intimate relationships with people he had read intelligence files on, he stopped being an agent of the law and became a self serving sociopath Just wanted to say I think your calling this guy a rapist is very harsh. Sleeping with somebody that thinks you're somebody else might be a lot more prevalent than you think, it's a matter of degrees in my experience.
I've slept with a number of ladies that never knew who I was and vice versa. I agree. Rape is the wrong word, it's too strong. In my opinion, that's a pretty warped sense of what 'love' is. In my experience, trust is a major part of any decent relationship. To me, trust is a prerequisite to a proper relationship, if that goes, then 'love' is an illusion living on borrowed time. I have a feeling the above comments were written by men? I would call it rape, the woman was giving herself to someone else not him, so he instead of him raped her.
Yes, you're right, all of us above that have commented on this bit are men. I'm pretty sure. Fair observation mate. I can see your point I think. I don't like or agree with what he did, it just depends on the definition of what is rape exactly I guess. I'm not disputing it's wrong. Would you agree though, if anyone misrepresents who they are to the other in a relationship, either partner it's at least in the same 'ball-park'?
Not saying it's rape, but immoral none the less. In my limited understanding, rape seems to be about physically expressing control over someone else, negating their personal right to self determination and choice. Which, if that is the criteria, this case may or may not fall under the definition of rape. Hmm, food for thought. I think most of us usually do that at least to some extent at the beginning That pretty much cuts to the heart of it doesn't it? The 'physical expression of control' part. At least that's how I've been taught to demarcate the definition, which is why I'm wondering so much about this argument now.
It certainly is food for thought. This is certainly one of the most interesting discussions I have read on here. I have to agree with docoman.
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I don't know if this could be considered outright rape, but it is clearly an immoral act, however I think most people at one time or another have misrepresented themselves intentionally - and not just for a relationship. Many people tell white lies in job interviews to make themselves seem more skilled and appropriate for the position for which they are applying. It seems as if there is a fine line between accepted, and, to some extent, expected, deception and intolerable lies. Mark's whole career was based upon crossing that line, and obviously he could not separate his professional and personal lives, so he ended up crossing the line with his relationship.
I'm not making excuses for Mark and do not condone what he did; this is just my analysis of the situation. Sorry, Rohitasch, I don't quite understand what you're asking. If you are asking by what standard is morality measured against, I cant answer that. There is no set standard, rather a loosely-agreed on code of conduct that changes from one culture to another as well as one person to the next. Most people agree that deception is harmful to the way society and interpersonal relationships function, and so I base my definition of 'immoral' upon that premise. If have misunderstood you, I apologise.
The word "morality" is what concerns me here. Deception is "unfair". Unfair people propagate a breakdown in social and interpersonal bonds. Usually forcibly. That's all I'm trying to say. Let's not get "morality" into this. Its unfair to present yourself as someone other other than what you really are when you get into a relationship. G'day Rohitasch, "Let's not get "morality" into this. Is there any 'crime' that morality doesn't come into it? I have already agreed what he did was not right.
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Gidday mate. The word "morality" has associated with it behaviour that itself is unfair. I absolutely agree that what he committed was psychological crime. His behaviour was absolutely bloody unfair, with not sense of justice or consideration whatsoever.
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Okay, I'll come clean, I'm a male. But should that matter? Is there something inherently male in my line of reasoning here that I should be made aware of? In short. Saying Hi i'm jabber and i'm a stunt car driver to a chick is hardly the same as what this guy did, it's like comparing apples to really rapey oranges. If any of those women had known he was a police officer trying to gather evidence against them, they wouldn't have slept with him, so i stand by my statement that he raped them.
I shall never look at apples or oranges again the same. I certainly see where you're coming from and I'm not disagreeing that what the guy did is in some regards morally reprehensible but I think using rape to describe this particular type of duplicitous behaviour is opening a door to degrees of interpretation on many other scenarios. What about married guys that are secretly gay? It seems like a slippery argument to make, one where the line can be drawn arbitrarily according to each persons interpretations.
You have made me wonder though, I had been planning on watching one or two James Bond movies tomorrow but now I'm not sure. In fact I may have to reconsider all those rapey orange spy movies I watch from time to time. I think I've read you are British, is that correct mate? English too are you? Just had to ask, 'rape' wasn't on your mind after what Graeme Swan said on twitter about losing the Ashes was it? Well done last tour over there, got us fair and square. Got ya's back here at home though. I agree with the rest of your assessment, I just think 'rape' is a bit too strong a word, deception, dishonest yep.
I agree with your thoughts about him likely being a sociopath that probably hasn't got the capacity for an honest 'love'. Yeah, but reality says there has to be a line drawn somewhere, a definition of what rape is and isn't. I'm not sure that's rape, if there is a consent even if as you say, under false pretenses. Rape is about dominating regardless of the victims wish's and feelings. I've had 'fun' as a young bloke, slept with girls I didn't know and didn't know me, but I've never raped anyone. It was all mutual consent, I asked and got a 'yes'. Never rape.
If one of them accused me of rape I'd be confused, as they'd said 'yes' and wanted to too. I'm no expert, and am happy to be educated more and possibly corrected. Most men told lies like I will respect you in the morning or I love you. What's your point? We are all bad. No , you've not understood my point properly.
If it was about pure honesty, then both sexes are guilty of rape. It's more then just honesty, hence the part I said; " my personal feeling is rape is all about consent and control" As already replied to you by another poster, women are also dishonest, men don't have a monopoly on that mate.
Gender has nothing to do with one's level of honesty in my experience. Of course both genders are dishonest! Every one has lied at least once in their life time. I just do not think this was rape. However, as the point was maid was she to get pregnant then her life and that of a child would forever be ruined. U bring an innocent life into it.
A possible lawsuit could have happened. Too sad! What child? The only children he had was with his legitimate wife is what I recall watching. Ahh, ok. After reading more of the posts you've made on other threads it makes sense now. You're dealing in maybe's, what if's, trying to make an emotional appeal to further your personal view against men.
Hmm, sad story, but that's all your post was, a story. Do you have anything else to add to the conversation, or is Men are Evil the only point you wish to express? You hit the nail on the head the innocent parties that have been thrown into this sordid affair is his actual wife and children. I think they will suffer from his actions long after the dust has settled. He has shown the true colors of a bloke with little or no respect to his wife and children. It sounds to me that your going by your own experience rather than an informed and educated position. If we were honest it appears to me that both sexes can be equally guilty of moral crimes.
I agree with what your saying, however I think there is a huge difference between picking up a one night stand when both given consent and when the deception and dishonesty is being continually used to maintain a relationship under a false pretense.
I could be way off, but any theft by deception is a crime and as it was sex by deception surely it would have to be sexual assault rape. It was ethically wrong at the very least. Effectively the 'rape discussion' comes down to degree's of wrongness, and where the dividing line is placed for rape, legally. Pinch a lady on the butt or boob and you could be charged with sexual assault, do it in the workplace and it's sexual harassment. But both fall short of being called rape as I understand it. What this copper did was much more then a 'pinch' or feel-up.
If I was a juror and it was rape charges, I'd need to hear more to make up my mind. I'd have to hear her thoughts too I think, as well us look at that jurisdictions definition of rape. From what was said in this doco, I'm unsure to be honest. I'd need to know more to decide properly. G'day mate, Great day for us Aussies at the "G" today, look out Sydney in five days. I may be wrong but from my understanding sexual assault in rape, just like manslaughter is murder. I take on board what you're saying with sexual harrasment, but if the complainant reports that to the police it would be sexual assault rape in the eyes of the law I think.
I think the legal answer would come down to that particular jurisdiction and it's laws and any legal precedence if they have any. No one seems to dispute what he did was wrong, just to what degree and what to call it really. I have no sympathy for him, he lied to everyone, including his real family and real employer, the Police. Now it's time to pay the piper, he doesn't like it. Fk him I think, he spread so much BS around in his life, now he's crying that it's starting to smell. I suspect the Police don't want to push any charges, it shines light on their activities, there's every chance this 'doco' is as far as it'll go.
From what I've seen is in the bag with Mitch Johnson man of the series and 40 wickets.
I think you're right with the law and the legal aspects. The only sympathy I have is for the innocent victims in this whole saga his wife and children. I think the police would have already put this case to bed so to speak, the last thing they would do is air their dirty tactics.
I think one of the most disturbing aspects is the operation itself, surely the cost to the tax payer with no results should indicate poor management of resources to say the least. No doubt they justified it by giving off the impression that it's an on going case and they were gaining very important intel from their man inside. Yes, his kids and wife are innocent and paying the biggest price.
For what, some intel on a few of what the police consider 'nutters' breaking into some private businesses. Wrong on many levels the whole thing, starting with the operation. Surely the UK police have more important crimes to chase up then that. I agree, seems a big mismanagement of resources for what mostly amounted to boosting security for private concerns.
Yeah i'm English for my sins. My little knowledge of it comes entirely from Andy Zaltsman's puns on the subject. How many of those people did not tell their partner they were married before having a one night stand or an affair. Oh the lawyers would be loving your definition of rape. I'm sorry mate but if you don't get why the two aren't really comparable, if you think what this guy did is in any way comparable to some sleaze having an affair then i'm sorry but there's no way i can dumb my argument down enough for you to understand.
NO - and thats a job too. Prob not a dignified form of job, but for some women desperate to make ends meet and put food on the tables of their children its a job.
This man didn't just lie about who he was, he had dossiers on these women, he effectively stalked them, found out everything he could about them, and then used that to worm his way into bed with them whilst he was supposed to be investigating them for a criminal prosecution. Mee is correct in pointing out that people misrepresent who they are all the time, you don't have to be an undercover cop! People lie about their name, their age, their occupation - and often their goal is to get more sex. But no actually, this is not the definition of rape no matter how much you might like it to be.
Like most people in the world, you seem bent on a dualistic understanding of the world in which there is only good vs bad, right vs wrong, us vs them, and so forth. In fact, the whole point of this documentary was to show the grey areas in which reality is more complex, nuanced and conflicted. One of the reasons I got out of the UK activist scene was because I found this type of dualism to be rampant and ridiculous in the extreme.
The self-proclaimed "anarchists" none of whom probably ever read a word of Emma Goldman or Peter Kropotkin but just adopted the label as meaning "we can do whatever we want" had a very black-white view of reality and behaved like anybody in a uniform was a minion of Corporate Evil. I have seen "peaceful" activists be extremely verbally abusive to cops who were not in any way doing anything provocative, but were just standing around at protests. Chanting "pig" and so forth, trying to get a rise out of the cops.
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